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Welcome to the Zarthani.net H. Beam Piper mailing list and discussion forum. Initiated in October 2008 (after the demise of the original PIPER-L mailing list), this tool for shared communication among Piper fans provides an e-mail list and a discussion forum with on-line archives.
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David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
05:48 UT
Why were Dane and von Ohlmhorst on Mars?

I've always wondered how it was that Martha Dane managed to have had archaeological experience in the Indus Valley. She's not old enough to have done field research there prior to the Thirty Days' War--which took place more than two decades before she ended up on Mars--and yet presumably this region, the front line between Pakistan and Eastern Bloc India, suffered extensive atomic damage during the War.

Recently I've been doing some more gleaning of Beam's Terro-human Future History, trying to better understand the details of the Thirty Days' War. It seems reasonable to assume that Turkey, also on the front lines with the Eastern Bloc, also suffered atomic damage in the War. That got me to thinking. Old Selim von Ohlmhorst is an expert in the Hittite Empire which was located in modern-day Turkey. So perhaps both Dane _and_ von Ohlmhorst have done archaeological work at sites which required attention to a particularly hostile environment, like that characterized by the remnants of atomic devastation caused by the Thirty Days' War.

Aren't those just the sort of archaeologists the organizers of an archaeological expedition to Mars would be looking for? We never hear of any particular interest in spaceflight or extraterrestrial civilizations on Dane's or von Ohlmhorst's parts. They are just committed archaeologists. Perhaps they were recruited because of their respective field experiences in the irradiated Indus Valley and central Anatolia which left them particularly suited to working in the harsh, unusual field conditions expected on Mars.

Or not, of course. ;)

Kukan or Bust!

"The Terro-human Future History . . . has a historian's attention to sociological and political detail that is unsurpassed." - John F. Carr, Introduction to ~Empire~
Edited 01-28-2012 00:31
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
05:28 UT
Jim Broshot wrote:

> It sounds like he was reading LORD KALVAN OF OTHERWHEN (named
> in the story but not as the title) but as part of a collection of
> stories?

I'm guessing he was reading ~The Complete Paratime~ omnibus from Ace (2001), which included all of the Paratime yarns plus ~Lord Kalvan~, or perhaps the 1986 ~Time Wars~ anthology which includes the original "Gunpowder God" novelet (from ~Analog~, Nov. '64) or the 1988 ~Book of Soldiers~ anthology which includes the original "Down Styphon!" novelet (from ~Analog~, Nov. '64).

Down Styphon!

"Do you know which books to study, and which ones not to bother with? Or which ones to read first, so that what you read in the others will be comprehensible to you? That's what they'll give you [at university]. The tools, which you don't have now, for educating yourself." - Bish Ware (H. Beam Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
  Spam messages 935-934 deleted by QuickTopic between 01-18-2012 11:02 PM and 10-28-2012 02:16 AM
David Johnson
12:55 UT
Piper Fans,

Check out this recent remembrance of Beam from the ~Centre Daily Times~:
(Apoligies if the mailing list wraps that URL.)

Beam was even a bit more prescient than Mr. Mills describes. Not only do his Paratime yarns (like ~Lord Kalvan~) envision the "multiverse" but, as we discussed here recently, his yarn "Ministry of Disturbance" envisaged the recent experimental findings of translight particles.
For Sun and Cogwheel,

The H. Beam Piper Home Page: http://www.zarthani.net
Gordon Johansen
20:14 UT
Since it appears that a bunch of members here are also gamers I thought I would post a link to a five minute documentary done on my store and its gaming community by my daughter as a grade 12 media project. It was posted on youtube 3 weeks ago and has almost had 1800 views already. She did an awesome job (though I am somewhat biased). If this is any way considered spamming the list, please delete it as this is not my intent.
The book section can be partially scene in the opening moments at the far back of the shot. It doesn't really do the selection justice though as there are over 7000 titles in that area. We do carry John's books all the time of course.


Gordon Johansen
19:48 UT
$5.00 is on the way thought it will probably show up as being from the Sentry Box rather than myself.


QT - David PiperFan Johnson wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
07:25 UT
Jackson Russell wrote:

>There is also the Gimlians, Lokians, the Kwan, though that may
>come after Little Fuzzy's time, the Ullerans, um...

Oops! You're right! Both the Kwanns of Kwannon (from "Oomphel in the Sky") _and_ the Svants of Svantovit (from "Naudsonce") are discovered _after_ the events of ~Little Fuzzy~. So that means both Gimlians and Freyans can be counted among the "nine" of ~Little Fuzzy~.


Kwanns are out, so we have four so far (Fuzzies, Freyans, Thorans, Ullerans).

>Martian (aka Human...see "Genesis")

Well, I wouldn't count "Genesis" as a Future History yarn but we still have the ancient, extinct Martians from "Omnilingual." These though would be excluded from the "nine" of ~Little Fuzzy~ by the "extrasolar" qualifier.


Which brings us to six.

>Hetarian (First Cycle...some argue against this being THFH

Yeah, I'm in that group. At the very least, ~Cycle~ did not appear prior to ~Little Fuzzy~ so I would not count the ~Cycle~ sapients among the "nine."


Yep. Seven.


Like the Gimlians, they don't show up until ~Fuzzy Sapiens~ but this brings us to eight.


Yep. The Yggdrasil natives make number nine!

>By the time of Ministry of Disturbance there are 22 known
>sapient races.

Actually, it was "fourteen races--fifteen if you counted the Zarathustran Fuzzies. . . ." Terro-humans would be ten (from the nine "extrasolar" races of the ~Little Fuzzy~ era). Kwanns and Svants would be twelve. Maybe Martians are thirteen. Just one more race (or two or three, if the Martians and perhaps Freyans aren't counted) seems reasonable for an Empire that apparently hasn't increased in interstellar scope much beyond the original boundaries of the Old Federation.

For Sun and Cogwheel!

"You know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper), "Graveyard of Dreams"
David "PiperFan" JohnsonPerson was signed in when posted
06:56 UT
Jonathan Crocker wrote:

>I know it was discussed in Little Fuzzy, but how many sapient
>races were there?

The Fuzzies were the "ninth extrasolar sapient race" at the time of ~Little Fuzzy~. (That "extrasolar" part would leave out the ancient, extinct Martians discovered in "Omnilingual.")

>We saw the Ullerans, of course, and they
>mention the Khoogra, the Thorans were the bodyguard of the

Thorans are also mentioned in ~Uller Uprising~ and ~Four-Day Planet~ (and "When in the Course--") so they would have been among the nine counted at the time the Fuzzies were discovered.

>and then there's the Fuzzies. And the Freyans.

The Freyans are problematic. You have to count them to get to nine if you're looking only at the "extrasolar sapient races" described in works which preceded ~Little Fuzzy~ in the Future History chronology. On the other hand, if you count the Gimlians--first mentioned in ~Fuzzy Sapiens~ (which was written _after_ ~Little Fuzzy~ but which occurs at essentially the same time in the Future History)--then you have to drop out the Freyans. This is problematic because even if you assume that the unpublished "When in the Course--" is non-canonical (which I don't do) you're still left with Paula Quinton's Freyan grand from ~Uller Uprising~. For some reason though it seems that, once ~Fuzzy Sapiens~ comes along, the Freyans get dropped (perhaps because, being interfertile with Terro-humans, they're not considered to be a separate sapient race).

>Did Piper mention any others?

Yes, as Jack points out. (I'll have some comments in a separate response to his message.)


"Why not everybody make friend, have fun, make help, be good?" - Diamond Grego (H. Beam Piper), ~Fuzzy Sapiens~
Jackson Russell
21:29 UT
There is also the Gimlians, Lokians, the Kwan, though that may come after Little Fuzzy's time, the Ullerans, um...

Martian (aka Human...see "Genesis")
Hetarian (First Cycle...some argue against this being THFH canon) Sheshans

By the time of Ministry of Disturbance there are 22 known sapient races. In Little Fuzzy's time, the Fuzzies were the tenth known sapient race.

< replied-to message removed by QT >
Jonathan Crocker
20:44 UT
I know it was discussed in Little Fuzzy, but how many sapient races were there? We saw the Ullerans, of course, and they mention the Khoogra, the Thorans were the bodyguard of the Emperor, and then there's the Fuzzies. And the Freyans.

Did Piper mention any others?
Spam deleted by QuickTopic 10-28-2012 07:16
Lucius Severus Pertinax
09:14 UT
One area of interest would be the subsequent history of the Gashta of Zarathrustra. Some 24 Centuries elapsed between thier discovery by Jack Holloway in AE 654 and thier brief mention in "Ministry of Disturbance" What happened to them in the meantime?
Spam deleted by QuickTopic 10-28-2012 07:16
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